Apropos of nothing - a random HP thought.

[ridicully]

Where does half the fandom get the impression that Harry is cheating by using a book with notes in it?

They are allowed to use their book while brewing and are supposed to have read up on the potion they are preparing in class.
And in written tests, I doubt they are allowed to use their books anyway, so the notes won't be any help to him there.
The only difference I see between Harry and a Ravenclaw (in this instance) is that the Ravenclaw would have made the notes himself - and probably not in the book, but on a spare bit of paper.

Having better reference material is rarely considered cheating. No matter how much of an advantage it gives you.

Comments

[threeoranges.livejournal.com]

But there's a world of difference between someone guiding you through problems until you figure out how to do it yourself (as Hermione undoubtedly would do with Neville) and someone doing all your work for you and your putting your name to that other person's work :)

Like I said, I don't blame Harry for doing it, the temptation was overwhelming (and came upon him before he even knew it had happened) but it was still wrong.

[ridicully]

But is wrong in this case really the same as cheating?

Especially since from what we see of the HBP's notes, they are more along the lines of technical impovements of the brewing process. Which apparently isn't something the average student can ever figure out, but only learn from the book or look up elsewhere.
From what we see, the only lesson where an actual understanding of the principles was required was the antidote lesson. And the book couldn't help Harry there - but then, no one but Hermione even understood what they were supposed to do.

[threeoranges.livejournal.com]

Especially since from what we see of the HBP's notes, they are more along the lines of technical impovements of the brewing process. Which apparently isn't something the average student can ever figure out, but only learn from the book or look up elsewhere.

I thought it was all about "trial and error", myself. Potions seems to be a lesson where one learns through making mistakes and learning what not to do. Judging from the fact that Hermione hasn't been able to discover these technical improvements in any other book (had she done so, she'd have been able to keep up with Harry), it would appear that the HBP made all these notes as the result of his own efforts. He did the work, he experimented with strategic changes (probably as self-imposed homework).

Harry sailed to the top of the class on another person's efforts and, to do so, he had to pretend that he was someone who cared enough about Potions to do that extra work in his own time. Whichever way you slice it, it ain't right.

That said, I would be prepared to argue that Harry would not have been cheating had he spent his time memorizing the HBP's work and doing experiments outside of class to confirm the rightness of the notations. How is this not cheating, you ask? Simple: because Harry is spending his own time verifying the information and doing the actual physical experiments. He'd be spending his own time in experimentation and learning. That way, he'd have an arguably unfair advantage, but at least he'd be using those notes to ascertain for himself the basic principles of Potion-making. He'd be WORKING.

As it is, Harry just coasts and learns nothing whilst at the same time soaring to the top of the class by following, monkey-like, another person's detailed hard work. Don't ask me to believe that's not cheating :)

[ridicully]

Don't ask me to believe that's not cheating :)
I won't ;) But I'm still not convinced myself.

I guess what it really comes down to is [as someone else said somewhere down the page], that from what we get to see of potions lessons in canon, it's a very weird subject and everyone has different ideas what it involves.
And depending on these ideas(and of course about a 1000 additional personal factors) he's either cheating or not.

For example I don't see potions as a trial and error lesson. They are supposed to get it right the first time by following their recipe. So a better recipe might make it easier, but shouldn't really make much of a difference.

I still see Harry not telling Slughorn that he had no idea what he was doing as wrong - but as you said before, it's an understandable reaction. And of course Slughorn *wants* it to be true. Otherwise he'd definitely have called Harry on the Bezoar trick.

[lilchickadee.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry to butt in on an ongoing conversation, but I've just arrived via The Daily Snitch. And part of what you said struck me oddly. First, if I may, personally, I view Harry receiving Snape's copy of the text as a simple matter. As far as I can understand (and I know it's been said before in this thread, please forgive me), Potions class is a bit like learning how to cook. You don't really ever learn why the yeast makes your dough rise or why the basil tastes good in this dish...it just does. Potions is much the same way. You don't ever learn (at least as far as we are led to believe) why the Bezoar stops the effects of most potions, nor why other ingredients affect certain potions the way the do. As far as the students know, they just do. Period. So, basically, he's only received an improved cookbook. I always thought of it, in terms of myself, as if I were baking from one of my mother's cookbooks wherein she had made notes that improved upon recipes. I would still present whatever it was I made from that cookbook as my own work because I was the one who cooked it.

I do understand that it was, at the least, dishonest and a little more than slightly low for Harry to fail to correct Slughorn's perception of him as a Potions whizz (although I think it's also been said that it's perfectly understandable).

That said, I would be prepared to argue that Harry would not have been cheating had he spent his time memorizing the HBP's work and doing experiments outside of class to confirm the rightness of the notations. How is this not cheating, you ask? Simple: because Harry is spending his own time verifying the information and doing the actual physical experiments. He'd be spending his own time in experimentation and learning. That way, he'd have an arguably unfair advantage, but at least he'd be using those notes to ascertain for himself the basic principles of Potion-making. He'd be WORKING.

And this is where I have to sit back and think because, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Harry indeed take the steps to verify that the instructions worked? When the notations said to "crush [the roots] with flat side of silver dagger, releases juice better than cutting." (p. 189, Scholastic edition), Harry tried it. And it worked. And, if I recall properly, he did test every notation in the book, though more than most of the experimentation was done in class. Not trying to be snarky, but honestly curious - how then does that not meet the qualification of "working" or "not using his own time in experimentation and learning"?

[threeoranges.livejournal.com]

You know, reading this makes me feel somewhat like a butterfly pinned through the thorax? I have to admit that the cookbook analogy is a valid one! The only objection I can raise to it is the old chestnut that Slughorn is judging him on what he perceives to be his own knowledge.

And this is where I have to sit back and think because, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Harry indeed take the steps to verify that the instructions worked? When the notations said to "crush [the roots] with flat side of silver dagger, releases juice better than cutting." (p. 189, Scholastic edition), Harry tried it. And it worked. And, if I recall properly, he did test every notation in the book, though more than most of the experimentation was done in class.

How I wish I had the book with me! If you're right that Harry does work outside of class as well as in class, then you've basically invalidated my argument - I honestly thought he only tested those notes whilst in class. If, however, Harry does only test the HBP's conclusions during class, then he's just coasting along using someone else's work and not doing the extra work needed to justify using his value-added recipe book.

I'm afraid I regard the annotated book as the equivalent of Harry having a personal tutor next to him in a test situation telling him what to do. Had he spent some time in learning the improved instructions by heart, then I would not have a problem with him using the book - and if the book states that Harry did spend his own time testing out the Potions recipes outside of class, then I concede defeat ;)

[ryf.livejournal.com]

How is a textbook with a few annotations doing 'all the work' for Harry. Doesn't he still have to do research and write essays and actually brew the potions? The textbook can't do that for him. Yes, Slughorn thinks that Harry came up with the alterations of the potions himself, but the fact is that Harry brewed them. He had to actually have enough Potions skills to accomplish that. And the gal of Potions class is that the students can brew the potions they need themselves. Harry achieves that, as does Hermione.

Also, Hermione on occasion does Potions homework for Ron and Harry and then they put their name on them. Because they didn't understand or were too lazy. The right thing would be to let them do it themselves even if that meant a bad grade.

[threeoranges.livejournal.com]

How is a textbook with a few annotations doing 'all the work' for Harry. Doesn't he still have to do research and write essays and actually brew the potions?

Because everyone else in the class has to learn by "trial and error" when it comes to brewing the potions, and by doing research when writing the essays. Harry does not have to do the "messy first attempt" (by which one learns what not to do) when brewing, nor does he have to pore over books in the library. He's getting fed the answers, and he doesn't even cite the source in his essays. That, as I said earlier, is called plagiarism. It's cheating.

Also, Hermione on occasion does Potions homework for Ron and Harry and then they put their name on them. Because they didn't understand or were too lazy. The right thing would be to let them do it themselves even if that meant a bad grade.

I agree, that was cheating too. I don't approve of that, and it sounds like you're not too impressed with it either. It's quite natural that Hermione "doesn't mind" when she does their work (as long as she's still top of the class), but resents it when Harry starts looking better than she does by cheating off someone else :) Even so, Harry should do his own work, full-stop.

[is-peoples.livejournal.com]

Let's say that instead of Potions, this was an Algebra class and instead of making potions, they're solving word problems. Now, the book gives Harry specific steps to take toward answering the math problem. They are complicated and long. The Half-Blood Prince has made notes in the book that provide a different way of solving the same problem. The alternate instructions are also complicated and long, but they work better for Harry than the instructions provided by Macmillan/McGraw Hill. Harry uses the Prince's alternate math formula, and finishes his word problem first. How is this cheating? And if it's not cheating, then how is it different than Harry following the suggestions noted in the book when it comes to how to chop ingredients?

IIRC, the notes in the book all deal with procedural aspects of potion-making: how to stir, the best way to skin a shrivel fig, etc. If Harry needs to write essays about the theoretical or alchemical aspects of potion-making, he's still going to have to find that information for himself.

In fact, I would argue that part of why Harry's doing so much better in Potions is that because he finds the Half-Blood Prince so interesting, he's actually reading his textbook outside of class for a change. Snape makes studying fun!

[threeoranges.livejournal.com]

The alternate instructions are also complicated and long, but they work better for Harry than the instructions provided by Macmillan/McGraw Hill. Harry uses the Prince's alternate math formula, and finishes his word problem first. How is this cheating? And if it's not cheating, then how is it different than Harry following the suggestions noted in the book when it comes to how to chop ingredients?

First of all, it's not just that Harry finishes first, it's that his potions are better, by any objective criterion, than anyone else's in the class. It's not a question of two different sets of algebra instructions both leading to the right answer, it's more a question of (to use a parallel from literature lessons) Harry getting his answers from an advanced-level, well-annotated York Notes crib of JANE EYRE when everyone else in the class is still reading the teacher's intermediate-level notes.

I know what you're going to say - "well, couldn't the rest of the class find their own advanced-level crib in the library?" Since Hermione can't compete with Harry despite her hard work and diligent research, it's obvious that the answer to that one is "no".

OK then, you might ask, shouldn't Harry be allowed to use his unfair advantage? If he just leaves the book on the shelf, how does this help anyone? To which I would have to reply, sure he can use it, but the honorable thing to do would be to memorize the book's contents and practise the procedural aspects outside of class. As I said earlier on this thread, what matters is that the student puts in the effort in his/her own time to memorize facts and figure out how things work. Harry isn't doing that. Without that book to copy he's back to being Mr Average in Potions class, which is why he feels so awkward when Hermione accuses him of cheating. He knows he isn't being honorable.

IIRC, the notes in the book all deal with procedural aspects of potion-making: how to stir, the best way to skin a shrivel fig, etc. If Harry needs to write essays about the theoretical or alchemical aspects of potion-making, he's still going to have to find that information for himself.

I haven't the book with me so I take your word! I also agree with what you say, but from Slughorn's reaction it seems to be that practical knowledge which is the most important element of Potions lessons.

In fact, I would argue that part of why Harry's doing so much better in Potions is that because he finds the Half-Blood Prince so interesting, he's actually reading his textbook outside of class for a change. Snape makes studying fun!

If Snape makes studying so much fun, why don't the kids he's been teaching for five years already know the best way to chop ingredients, skin a shrivelfig, etc? ;) It seems to me entirely typical of Snape that he wants to keep his superior knowledge all to himself, hidden away in his own textbook, leaving his students to study from the most basic recipes so that he can shout at them when they screw up out of ignorance. (No, I don't believe he's a vile murderer :) but I do believe he's a petty piece of work...)

[is-peoples.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I think that the root cause of disagreement is that we have different ideas about what Potions is all about. It's not a very well-defined class in canon. To borrow from my previous analogy, maybe it would be better to say that Harry's the only one who got the correct answer to the word problem because he was using the old math formulas that he found in his book, while everyone else was trying to puzzle out the new math solution to the problem. Which still isn't cheating, but is an unfair advantage. And I see it more akin to notes in a math book than notes in a lit book partly because of the "follow the recipe" format of the classes we've seen and partially because math was my very least favorite class, so that's the analogy that's stuck in my head. But anyway, I agree that the lit class scenerio is cheating, but I'm not sure that it applies to Potions.

If Snape makes studying so much fun, why don't the kids he's been teaching for five years already know the best way to chop ingredients, skin a shrivelfig, etc? ;) It seems to me entirely typical of Snape that he wants to keep his superior knowledge all to himself, hidden away in his own textbook, leaving his students to study from the most basic recipes so that he can shout at them when they screw up out of ignorance. (No, I don't believe he's a vile murderer :) but I do believe he's a petty piece of work...)

Oh heavens, yes. Snape is a dreadful teacher who shouldn't be allowed to talk to children, let alone try to impart knowledge to them. I was talking about the SnapeChild who wrote in the textbook making studying fun, mostly because I enjoy the irony of some old notes of Snape's teaching a student more than Snape himself probably ever has as a teacher. I also wonder how, with teachers like Snape and Hagrid and Trelawney and at least half of the DADA teachers, Hogwarts manages to turn out any students who are equipped for the real world.